Talk:The Mill/Archive 0003

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Quiet

Mighty quiet in here lately. Come on in. Have a cuppa coffee --Sparkit 14:47, 28 March 2006 (AKST)

Curiosity Killed this Cat;)

Jimbob, with much love...and admiration...lol I pose this question just for the sake of asking I suppose. Is there something wrong with the old WWR> or is this just a fun challenge to reinvent WWR? I know I should of been paying more attention...lol!! Do I get a demerit now??? Redsy 04:15, 29 March 2006 (AKST)

Have you seen the interview page? Interview_with_Jimbob_concerning_V4 Kelli 05:11, 29 March 2006 (AKST)

No I had not...THANKS HEAPS Kelli ;)Redsy 05:16, 29 March 2006 (AKST)

No Redsy - you get bonus points for figuring out how to ask a question on the new site and then asking it! So does Kelli! The interview probably answers the question, but to be more direct, from my standpoint there is something 'wrong' with the old site. It doesn't allow enough serious participation from the community - well, to be more blunt - it requires too much of my time to add new information, keep information current, come up with new designs as features are added (and my visual designs are, as you know, notoriously sucky) etc. etc. etc. Had I never stumbled upon Wikipedia I'd probably have just let the old site keep going until I finished V3 which would have been several months away. The wiki concept let me almost immediately start adding the new features of V3 while at the same time letting other Wheatheads contribute significantly in other areas.
Uh oh - I'm rambling. Yeah, read the interview for futher details. And, it's good to see you here! I'd love to see the visual artists of WWR start a page where maybe they all talk about (and show) their work. We have a lot of artists and I'd be pleased as punch to see a page showcase them all! It'd be neat to point people to a page like that or a page where any interests that certain listeners share are showcased. But, of course, only if someone is interested enough to start such a project. That's part of the beauty of this new site ... if you get a neat idea and have the time, you can bring it to fruition without so much as a nod of approval from me. That was impossible on the old system. Jimbob 02:23, 30 March 2006 (AKST)
See Talk:The_Mill#Visual_Artists_of_WWR below for my comments about visual arts. Sparkit 05:01, 30 March 2006 (AKST)

Tech Note: Chasing down templates for sysops

For those sysops who are following some of the system templates I've been creating and get frustrated trying to figure out which one calls which one etc. here's a neat trick. (Sorry, I think you have to be a sysop to do this stuff because only sysops have edit priviledges on system pages.) Let's trace down chat:

  1. Click on Chat
  2. Click on edit
  3. Yeah, it says System Chat in the edit box but check out the bottom of the screen. Those links to the templates included in the screen are a real time-saver. Not only does it show the main template for System Chat, but also the templates included in it and even templates included in templates! You can easily get to any level of nested template just by using your mouse. Huge time-saver when you're trying to track down which template does what and how screens are actually put together.

For whatever it's worth, I'm using the naming convention "System xxx" for all templates which will end up being the system defaults for how the site looks. We can, of course, change the actual layouts (and will based on the visual magic I've seen ya'll coming up with) but those template names will remain constant so we have a non-changing reference point on which to build the default system. I'm also protecting all the system templates from casual edits by users ... but as a sysop, if you feel a (relatively small) change or correction is needed, feel free. Just don't go completely replacing it without giving me a head's up since I'm actively using the system templates to do my development coding. Thanks!

P.S. I had to do a double-take on getting sent to the "talk" page here on The Mill (and I think I sensed it happening elsewhere earlier) --- stroke of genius! Absolutely! Brilliant! I love how this site allows new ways of thinking like that to totally redefine the entire site in more user-friendly better way. so_happy

Jimbob 02:08, 30 March 2006 (AKST)

Visual Artists of WWR

Jimbob, I would be happy to help add, but creating would take a bit more time then I have at this time. Maybe someone can jump in and help??

  • Create a catagory/page for Visual Artists...where we could link to a gallery set up for just the Visual Artists to post too?
  • Or we could link from Visual arts page to each users individual user page and site?

Lots of options...just have to KISS it! (Keep It Simple Stupid) for people like me, bugeyes that are not techno talented!!happy Redsy 04:02, 30 March 2006 (AKST)

Redsy! hug I started a couple visual arts things and would love to help folks get started on adding stuff to that area. One of the beauties of the wiki format is how easy it is to add information, words and images. Much, much simplier than HTML markup.
To add yourself to the Visual artists category paste this at the bottom of your user page, [[Category:Visual artists]]
There are a couple pages started on visual arts that you'll find in the Visual arts category.
A few relevant howto pages are: Uploading photos, Create a gallery and Editing cheat sheet. --Sparkit 05:20, 30 March 2006 (AKST)

Space below the toolbox on the left

I have a recommendation for the space below the toolbox on the left column. It would be useful to the WWR population to have a little cheat sheet. Include on the cheatsheat elements for images, emoticons, .... This would help beginners learn the syntax of the image link formatting. -RickHap 18:27, 31 March 2006 (AKST)

Utimately maybe we'll have a little something right on the chat page, but while Jimbob is still prototyping and debugging the chat pages will remain extremely simple. A link to the Chat cheat sheet is now in the left navigation bar, and on the chat page below the room links.
One thing I like to do is occassional drive-by postings of the "Quick start" template (type {{Quick start}}) in the chats, and the image syntax thing you made last night could be posted often. --Sparkit 05:10, 1 April 2006 (AKST)

New Underwear

Check out Underwear. It's a start. The point is, anyone who loves doing CSS (have I mentioned that I hate CSS? smile) can use those style-sheets as a starting point for creating new ones. It's a shame that I can't integrate this stuff with Preferences/Skins but I can't. Oh, and there's a new skin under Preferences called "Dusk". It's pretty cool but I only looked at the main page with it. Other pages may look like dodo.

Have at it all you CSS freaks. I've gotten emails in the past where people wanted to volunteer to design CSS layouts for WWR. Now's your chance! Jimbob 23:39, 3 April 2006 (AKDT)

This feature is not yet functioning if you don't already have a CSS page in place. Hang tight. More info to come. --Sparkit 06:31, 4 April 2006 (AKDT)
Instructions are now on the page to make a CSS page. --Joe Blow 08:25, 4 April 2006 (AKDT)

Paging in chat

Question: How can one go back several pages of chat to check on history? I don't see a button/link on the page like the old chat...I'm old and retraining ain't easy :) Cindy 09:09, 4 April 2006 (AKDT)

You need to increase the number of lines in the "Show" box below the text entry chat box. I don't know of another way yet. Kelli 09:15, 4 April 2006 (AKDT)
Jimbob just added PgUp and PgDown links at the bottom of the chat. I think he did it last night or this morning. To get back to the current chat you have to click the Refresh button at the top (not the Refresh link at the bottom). Yep, this place is getting just as quirky as the old site. --J-Walk 09:35, 4 April 2006 (AKDT)
Cool, thanks! Kelli 09:49, 4 April 2006 (AKDT)
Quirky works for me! thanks JimBob & JWalk Cindy 11:51, 4 April 2006 (AKDT)
Yeah, and I've got a chat search page / history page started but not happy with it yet to release it. It'll be coming soon. Oh, and that "refresh" link at the bottom of the current chat will probably disappear at some point. For technical reasons, it's much slower and uses more resources than the Refresh button at the top of the screen. Jimbob 02:52, 5 April 2006 (AKDT)


Old site migrating to new site

Yes, I've redirected several of the main pages of the old site to come to the new one. I can easily back that off, and plan to at odd times over the new few days. But I'm trying to get people used to the new site (whether they like it yet or not) and I really need to get a handle on how much CPU resources the new site is going to take when fully loaded. I can't get a clear reading with both sites running. And I definitly want new users coming to the new site since they're not brainwashed yet about how great the old one is. rotfl

Besides, most of the essentials are here on the new site. And development is so easy relative to the old site that I can usually migrate one or two major features / day. But, just in case you need some of the old pages, several of them are here which is the same page as "Old website pages" on the sidebar menu. Jimbob 02:58, 5 April 2006 (AKDT)

Is it slower?

Is the new site slower than the old site? It seems that way to me, but maybe it is just my perception. I am not complaining, mind you. No Luddite am I. Perhaps someday the loyal Wheatfield will donate enough funds to get you a real honker of a server. If I were not sans employment at the moment I'd send you a Benjamin towards it. Gearhead 14:12, April 5, 2006 (AKDT)

It does appear to be getting slower by the day. Maybe it's just me, too. Or maybe it's the rapid growth of new pages?--Bisbonian 11:04, April 7, 2006 (AKDT)

On an unrelated topic...in the chat there is a column for how long ago something was said. Currently it says things like 2 mins. 56 secs., which tends to get too long for a narrow column. Would something like 2:56 work better?--Bisbonian 11:04, April 7, 2006 (AKDT)

Sorry, can't reply in full detail now (just a flyby from bed with back thing and drugs still happening) but re: speed of site. Keep in mind it's still way in development stage so very little time has been spent trying to optimize it at this point. It will happen (I love tweaking optimization). I too am aware of what feels like slow response. Down in the bowels though, the CPU and disk are running much cooler than the old site ... CPU utilization rarely goes above 1, is usually around 2-3 under heavy load, and I don't think I've seen it go above 5 at all. Old system ran generally above 1, often around 5, and under load between 5-15 on a regular basis. So, our pages may be stalling out, but the CPU generally has plenty of cycles available.
One of the reasons for slowness (especially in chat) is this: remember, browsers cannot show you what's inside a table...can't even start to show you, until the entire table has been received. Chat is nothing but a huge table. The more lines you're looking at (some people are regularly looking at 50+ lines which is just silly) the longer it will take to load. If you cut back to just the last 10-15 lines when you're actively chatting, even 20-30, you'll get much faster response than having it at 50+.
The system comes with gzip enabled by default meaning the site sends you compressed (zip) output directly to your browser if your browser supports it. I turned that off as it does slow down response. But the new software may have re-enabled it and I haven't been able to check yet. But I will.
Oh, and on the time column in chat, there are several other people developing chat output formats that solve the problem. Once I'm back in the saddle (or they just feel like posting their code for public use) we'll start making that stuff available for everyone. Remember, on this new site, just about every screen layout comment will end up with a similar response ... "if ya don't like it, create your own template and change it". We're not ready for that yet cuz I haven't documented how to use the system variables but, if you're game, don't let that stop you. Learn about templates, click on Template:System Chat, make a copy in your own sandbox and rearrange the screen any way you like. If it all sounds like too much work, have patience ... there'll be more screen formats than you can shake a stick at soon enough.
Gotta go - some good painkillers are calling my name smile Jimbob 16:54, April 7, 2006 (AKDT)

Request Page

I really like the new request format...it is much easier to use than the old one. One thing I miss about the old one, though, was the abliity to search based on keywords. I discovered most of my favorite artists by searching for keywords such as "folk", or "banjo", or "harmonica", and then playing random songs of artists I had never heard of before. The new format makes it very easy for me to play songs by my favorite artists, but very hard to find songs by artists I have not heard yet. Maybe just one more search box for "KEYWORD"? --Bisbonian 09:04, April 8, 2006 (AKDT)

I look forward to doing other types of searches, too, since I don't remember the names of the seldom heard artists. (Sparkit 12:22, April 8, 2006 (AKDT))
Yup, it'll be coming as soon as I'm back in the saddle. Keywords is an area I really would like to rethink and make easier, less restrictive and more useful. But at minimum, you'll definitely be able to use them again for requests. Glad you like 'em ... I didn't know anyone was using them like that. Jimbob 23:31, April 12, 2006 (AKDT)

Linux fsck question - request for help from Linux geeks

For any Linux geeks: WWR website crashes require my doing fsck.ext2 -y /dev/hda3 Although far from Linux fluent, it seems that's some sort of disk check ala chkdsk, scandisk, etc. to fix up disk. I've begun noticing a pattern of the same 3 'orphaned inode's occuring repeatedly after several different crashes (in bold below). I didn't want to spend time researching what I should do, or what fsck output means. Are there permanent bad sectors on the disk that keep trying to be used? If so, how do I mark them bad so they are never used? Unfortunately, the server is in New York so I cannot physically examine or change the machine. Any real world hints / tips / action plans appreciated. Thanks! Jimbob 23:26, April 12, 2006 (AKDT)

rescue:~# fsck.ext2 -y /dev/hda3
e2fsck 1.37 (21-Mar-2005)
/dev/hda3: recovering journal
Clearing orphaned inode 4178516 (uid=27, gid=27, mode=0100600, size=0)
Clearing orphaned inode 4178514 (uid=27, gid=27, mode=0100600, size=0)
Clearing orphaned inode 4178189 (uid=27, gid=27, mode=0100600, size=0)
 /dev/hda3: clean, 173820/4898816 files, 3896380/9787601 blocks

Jimbob 23:26, April 12, 2006 (AKDT)

Hi Jimbob. Journaled filesystems on Linux (or AIX or whatever) write a log of the changes they make to the filesystem before they make the real changes. In the case of deleting or adding a file, there are two operations - changing the file and changing the directory (i-node). If there is a crash between those two operations, something gets orphaned. When you re-boot the system, it scans the journal for operations that didn't finish and either rolls them foward (replays them) or rolls them back (removes them). In the process it will clear orphaned stuff left over from the incomplete operations.
A guess is that the same thing is making it crash each time, and it is always crashing trying to do the same file operation, maybe on some bad blocks.
Looks like there is a -c option to fsck or use the badblocks command directly to see if there are bad blocks that need to be marked. See http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl8_fsck.ext2.htm. Of course this may require the site to be down a while.
Plexed 21:14, April 14, 2006 (CDT)
Thank you Plexed! Excellent explanation. I've bookmarked the page (and badblocks page) so I can give it a try after the next crash when the server is unavailable to the public. I must admit, the most entertaining thing I've read in a manual came from the badblocks page: This can be overriden using the -f flag, but should almost never be used --- if you think you're smarter than the badblocks program, you almost certainly aren't. ROTFL Almost as though they were writing that for me specifically! Jimbob 10:15, April 18, 2006 (AKDT)
Note to self: Did complete disk check on 4/18 after system crash. Found 1 bad sector but may have been bad before test. Took 2-3 hours to run. Did -c -c to get a non-destructive read/write test. Jimbob 15:49, April 18, 2006 (AKDT)

Do you hate or adore the search box 'filling in the blanks'

This version of the wiki software uses a thing called Ajax to 'fill in' the search box as you type. I can easily turn it on or off (but only systemwide, not specifically by users). I can't decide if I like it or not but probably lean toward not liking it. Especially when you know the exact page you want to go to (i.e. bugs) ... you used to be able to type in the exact term, hit enter, and go directly to the page. Now you have an extra click involved. Anyway, what say you? Strong opinions will win out over mild ones here. Jimbob 15:47, April 18, 2006 (AKDT)

My hatred for that new search box has no limits. In fact, I can't think of anything on earth that I hate more. I detest it. No, I loathe it. It's an abomination and the person who invented it should be tortured and then shot in the head. Lately, I'm finding that I dread every trip to that damn search box. I've actually considered selling my computers because I hate that thing so much. So, my vote is to turn it off and go back to how it used to be. --J-Walk 17:05, April 18, 2006 (AKDT)
Yeah, like J-Walk said. It slows searches, messes with the notion of the "go" button, and because it's rather non-standard and non-intuitive it may be confusing. Ditch the SOB. (Sparkit 17:35, April 18, 2006 (AKDT))
I don't hate it quite as much as J-Walk, but I don't like it. I vote to get rid of it. Kelli 19:11, April 18, 2006 (AKDT)

Okay - since it was so universally loved, I turned it off. Thanks for the input. Jimbob 19:34, April 18, 2006 (AKDT)

Artist's statistics

How does one find the artist's statistics pages these days? Whitemouse was wondering in the chat. (Sparkit 07:00, April 20, 2006 (AKDT))

Go to Information for artists, and scroll down to the "Can I monitor my music?" section. There's a link to the page on the old site.
Thanks J-Walk! (Sparkit 10:53, April 20, 2006 (AKDT))
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